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KajunFirefly
chooby digital (in stereo)

Member Rated:

11-06-02 1:39pm (new)
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gabe_billings
President and CEO of Wirthlingsux Inc.

Member Rated:

/me busts a 40 of OE on Bongo's grave.

---
100 pounds of shit in a 25 pound sack.

11-06-02 1:40pm (new)
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andydougan
Film critic subordinaire

Member Rated:

He's still in the engine, though, just not on the menu. With my l33t skills, I just made this hilarious comic.

[Click to view comic: 'The fourth-best comic ever.']

11-06-02 1:47pm (new)
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ladyjdotnet
Snitcreator

Member Rated:

11-06-02 1:58pm (new)
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Brad
Feature Creep

Member Rated:

quote:
He's still in the engine, though, just not on the menu. With my l33t skills, I just made this hilarious comic.

[Click to view comic: 'The fourth-best comic ever.']


And now I guess I have to put blocks in.

---
www.bradsucks.net

11-06-02 2:02pm (new)
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andydougan
Film critic subordinaire

Member Rated:

Please, no!

11-06-02 2:08pm (new)
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weedleweedle
Member - Tobor Fan Club

Member Rated:

quote:
Doesn't Brad know anything about copyright infringement? He's profiting off of your donations, which go to the exploitation of copyrighted cartoon characters.

Does Brad care about this? Does anyone care?

Talk amongst yourselves.


@ FIRTS I WAS GONG TO AGREE W U

BUT THEN I REEEEEEEEEEAD THIS COMIX:

[Click to view comic: 'Serious Copyright Infringement']

UR A CPOY WRITE BRAKER 2! I HOPE U GO TO JALE CPOY WRITE BRAKER.

---
BROUGHT TO YOU BY WEEDLEWEEDLE J. PWEENS

11-06-02 3:40pm (new)
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weedleweedle
Member - Tobor Fan Club

Member Rated:

ONO I HAVE 2 GO 2 JAEL!

[Click to view comic: 'WEEDLEWEEDLE PWEENS']

---
BROUGHT TO YOU BY WEEDLEWEEDLE J. PWEENS

11-06-02 3:42pm (new)
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ObiJo
Eamus Catuli

Member Rated:

I want bongo back. I want to be the one who gets bongo back. I want to be who gets a ticker-tape parade for getting bongo back. I want to be the one bought drinks and hookers at every stripcreator meet for that great day I got bong back.

But mostly I just want bongo back.

The entire bredth of my copyright knowledge was gained in the last hour from here.

From that page:

quote:
Court's are more likely to find a parody to be a fair use, that is, non-infringing or diluting, if the parody appears in a traditional medium of protected free speech, finding such use to be "noncommercial". For example, the First Circuit reversed the district court's finding of dilution against High Society magazine's 2-page feature "L.L. Beam's Back to School Sex Catalog," depicting models in sexually explicit positions, holding that the article was protected as a noncommercial, editorial or artistic parody.

It offends the Constitution . . . to invoke the anti-dilution statute as a basis for enjoining the noncommercial use of a trademark by a defendant engaged in a protected form of expression.


A protected form of expression. That's the key right there. Copyright law has always been a battle betweeen two entities: the rights of ownership, and the freedom of expression. And courts have stumbled around clumsily trying to define the balance that will throw these two entities into equilibrium with each other. Courts have overriden each other, contradicted each other, nullified and reversed each other, the whole time blindly groping for this balance.

Except in one case. In one case, the courts have been very consistent. Freedom of expression, without dilution to a trademark, and with no intent of commercial gain is ALWAYS LEGAL.

ALWAYS.

Now let's apply this specifically to stripcreator. Freedom of expression. Who's doing that? You, me, Country Joe and the Fish, and anyone else that wanders upon the site. Do we, THE ONES EXPRESSING OURSELVES, expect any financial gain from making these comics? HELL NO! It's wholly and completely about expression, not about commercial gain. This is the key!

You can say, well Brad's making money off Bongo. Well, that's flawed. First off, he's facilitating freedom of expression THAT HAS EXPRESSION AND NOT COMMERCIAL GAIN as its primary goal, and for this he's making money. By proxy then, he's protected by copyright law. But ignoring this, what is Brad's intention? Do you think he does this site to rake in the money or to let people express themselves? It's obvious to anyone that knows him and the site that he's doing it for expression.

From that site again:

quote:
L.L. Bean, Inc., 811 F.2d at 32.
In support of its conclusion that the defendant's use was noncommercial (and therefore entitled to a more heighten level of protection than would be afforded to commercial speech), the First Circuit pointed to use of the labels "parody" and "humor" in the magazine's table of contents; that the L.L. Bean mark and the article were not mentioned on the magazine's front or back cover; that the article took up only two pages of a hundred page issue; and that the defendant was not selling any of the products shown in the article.

If this isn't a direct correlative to stripcreator, I don't know what is. Think about it, the court said that the High Society article wasn't copyright infringement because it identified itself as "humor", that the article was not mentioned as a means to sell the magazine (same as stripcreator not mentioning Groening and drawing in increased traffic off his name), that the article took up only two pages of a hundred page issue (bongo is one character of hundreds here), and that High Society wasn't selling any of the products shown in the article (just as brad's made it a point to not sell any merchandise other than those featuring Three Reasons - which is public domain). I mean, by christ, that case goes directly to stripcreator.

The only two things that might negate this are parody and dilution. First off, is the bongo character being used in parody or comment on its original source. Hell no, thealiasmen says! To which I counter

[Click to view comic: 'Obsessed with NS']
[Click to view comic: 'Friggles the clown presents Bongo, the Original Simpson']
[Click to view comic: 'Crises and Musings']
[Click to view comic: 'THE END']
[Click to view comic: 'Oh, Satan! V - Are you suuure?']
[Click to view comic: 'Ted's new roommate']
[Click to view comic: 'fear the moth.']
[Click to view comic: 'Life in Hell']
[Click to view comic: 'average american']
[ Posted comic does not exist ]
[Click to view comic: 'LIFE IN HELL by Matt Groening']
[Click to view comic: 'The rhythm's gonna get ya! Did I say rhythm? I meant lawyer.']
[Click to view comic: 'Jerk']
[Click to view comic: 'You Can't Copyright a Title']
[Click to view comic: 'Sued in Hell']
[Click to view comic: 'Next on Jerry Springer....']
[Click to view comic: 'the death of futurama']

The point, if not now mind-numbingly clear, is that bongo CAN be used for parody and HAS been for parody consistently. I mean, check the dates of the above comics. They span the entire existence of stripcreator. Why? BECAUSE WHEN SOMEONE SEES BONGO, THEY THINK MATT GROENING!

This goes directly to the dilution argument -- two kinds of people come to the site. Ones who know bongo previously, and ones who don't. For the former, bongo is immediately seen as a source of parody. The latter, like me when I first came here, just see a one-eared bunny. He's fun and I use him in comics as a one-eared bunny and make him do one-eared bunny things, and lead his happy frolicky one-eared bunny life. The former is obviously not dilution of the association of bongo with Matt Groening, but the second? Is associating an unknown entity with a false creator dilution? I say no. Here's why -- whether or not stripcreator would have bongo on its site, I would only associate bongo with Matt Groening once seeing him on The Simpson's. So one of two cases - I don't know bongo and see him on The Simpson's and now I know him, OR I know bongo as stripcreator art, see him on The Simpson's and realize, oh stripcreator is using him, but Groening created him. Either way, both are dependent upon me seeing The Simpson's. Two other possibilities exist also - that I'll always know bongo as stripcreator art, which is still not illegal until stripcreator tries to profit from that misconception. And the other possibility, and the one that applies specifically to me, is that stripcreator teaches people that bongo is Groening's art. I've never seen bongo anywhere but here. Never on an episode of The Simpson's. The only way I know he's from the Simpson's is because I've read the parody comics here and heard people talk about it. So, in this case, stripcreator is actually asserting copyright law. Think about it -- if I REALLY like the bongo character on this site, and see that brad isn't using him on any merchandise, I'm heading over to The Simpson's official page and looking for bongo merchandise there. If anything, Groening benefits from stripcreator.

One last point on this - it could rightly be argued that even if using the bongo character in parody strips is legal, but in other ways is not (something I *strongly* disagree with since there's no intent of making money), that Brad's intent could just be to provide bongo as a source for parody. He's posting the bongo art so that people can parody The Simpson's, and when they do, cool. When they don't, though, he's still not liable, since his intent in posting the bongo art at a free site, was only to provide strippers the ability to parody The Simpsons.

Something to keep in mind.

quote:
Another example of the broader scope allowed trademark parody in a noncommercial context is Cliffs Notes, Inc. v. Bantam Doubleday Dell Publishing Corp., 886 F.2d. 490 (2d Cir. 1989), which involved the use by the publisher of Spy Magazine of the cover design elements of Cliffs Notes for tongue-in-cheek parody called "Spy Notes." Reversing the district courts injunction based on a likelihood of confusion, the Court stated that a greater risk of confusion must be allowed for works such as parodies, in which expression, and not commercial exploitation, is the primary intent. Id. at 497.

The value of free speech was also acknowledged by the court in Mutual of Omaha, normally cited for the proposition that a disparaging parody of a company's trademark ("Mutant of Omaha") on a commercial product such as tee-shirts should be enjoined. The same court noted that the parody could be used, for example, on anti-nuclear pamphlets, a traditional means of free-speech. 836 F.2d at 403 n. 8.


Just further proof that when expression, and not commercial gain, is the primary intent, the court's nearly unanimously favor free expression over property rights.

It's your choice obviously, Brad, since you're the one who'll have to bite the bullet should anything come down. Just honestly consider it, because though I know it's murky water, I strongly believe that having the bongo art on stripcreator is in no way a copyright infringement.

---
I ate a hooker half a bottle of knife.

11-06-02 3:48pm (new)
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KajunFirefly
chooby digital (in stereo)

Member Rated:

*applaudes Obi*

Can't we contact the 'Life in Hell' guys and ask them what their views are?

---
Dad was flammable

11-06-02 4:25pm (new)
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dcomposed
C3H5N3O9

Member Rated:


How's this?



wait.. I've already proven I can't draw.

---
Batman created by Bob Kane

11-06-02 4:41pm (new)
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ladyjdotnet
Snitcreator

Member Rated:

Well, that's great dcom, but there are plenty of jokes that refer to Bongo's ONE EAR.

Obi: kudos for all your work... but brad was pruning the art to make room for new stuff anyway, and of all the stuff that could be nixed, I'll miss bongo the least.

Let's just move on. Take the wind out of the original poster's sails by not making this a big deal.

---
I am a delicate fucking flower. https://beacons.ai/jesskent

11-06-02 5:48pm (new)
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ObiJo
Eamus Catuli

Member Rated:

Ditto.

Last I heard, he was only thinking about taking out backgrounds. And if he did decide to remove characters, I'd think he'd want to put it up to a vote to the regs -- 4 characters have to go, let's pick one -- rather than have that decision thrust upon him by a misrepresentation of copyright law.

Yes, but that's you. Doesn't really matter to the rest of us what you think of a character, just what we each think. Which further illustrates the fairness of a vote.

This isn't a power struggle. I'm not looking to take wind out of anyone's sails. I couldn't give a damn about one-upping the original poster or him one-upping me. This is about an issue. About a comic group that is now missing from the make-a-comic page.

---
I ate a hooker half a bottle of knife.

11-06-02 6:07pm (new)
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andydougan
Film critic subordinaire

Member Rated:

Just one last note: if bongo's removal is inevitable (I hope it's not), then I'd suggest replacing him, retroactively, with another character. bongo is central to a story of which I'm in the middle, so it would be better for me, at least, if every prior instance of the character were replaced by another graphic that we could still use. Not that there's any special reason that should count.

Anyway. Back to curing cancer.

11-06-02 6:19pm (new)
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gabe_billings
President and CEO of Wirthlingsux Inc.

Member Rated:

If I ever get put on trial I want counselor Obi to represent me.

---
100 pounds of shit in a 25 pound sack.

11-06-02 6:34pm (new)
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dcomposed
C3H5N3O9

Member Rated:

Wait.. was this supposed to be like "dcom, your a fucking idiot".. or "Nice try dcom, but you're a fucking idiot".
The capitals on the last two words confused me.

---
Batman created by Bob Kane

11-06-02 7:24pm (new)
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punkrockskaboy
Defender of the Liquor Cabinet

Member Rated:

quote:
but there are plenty of jokes that refer to Bongo's ONE EAR.
quote:

That thing was an EAR!?! :)

---
Welcome to Bohemia. Population: a lot Cash flow: a little

11-06-02 8:28pm (new)
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kaufman
Director of Cats

Member Rated:

Just replace him with the new bunny character (plastic surgery), with height2 (he followed in the footsteps of his Uncle Harvey), or with dexx-skeleton (bongmoh!)

---
ken.kaufman@gmail.com

11-06-02 9:07pm (new)
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kaufman
Director of Cats

Member Rated:

And why do you think he has that one ear? Look at his name. Bongo. Bon-go. Bon-Gogh. That's right, he's a parody of a real person, dead over a century, and thus the lone ear is public domain!

---
ken.kaufman@gmail.com

11-06-02 9:11pm (new)
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ladyjdotnet
Snitcreator

Member Rated:

Wait.. was this supposed to be like "dcom, your a fucking idiot".. or "Nice try dcom, but you're a fucking idiot".
The capitals on the last two words confused me.


Neither, really. It was, "I appreciate your effort, dcom, but you overlooked a point, which I'll put in all caps so as to call your attention to it."

---
I am a delicate fucking flower. https://beacons.ai/jesskent

11-06-02 9:30pm (new)
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ladyjdotnet
Snitcreator

Member Rated:

quote:
Last I heard, he was only thinking about taking out backgrounds. And if he did decide to remove characters, I'd think he'd want to put it up to a vote to the regs -- 4 characters have to go, let's pick one -- rather than have that decision thrust upon him by a misrepresentation of copyright law.

Well, he didn't put it to a vote for deciding which backgrounds to nix, he just nixed them. Brad isn't really so much the put-it-to-a-vote sort. So far he's just done what he sees as working, and it always has worked out fine. Since it's his site, I have no gripes. Also, during a conversation on the irc channel, he did discuss the possibility of removing some characters. I suggested temporarily removing a few at random and bringing them back every so often like Baskin Robbins flavors, and he seemed to kind of like the idea.

And yes, I see your point about choice vs. coersion. I also agree, in theory. I just don't see it as that big a loss in this particular case.

I also understand your point about that being my opinion. I agree. It's my opinion. That's why I expressed it as such. You really don't need to slap me down with:

...but if it makes you feel like a better person to belittle my opinions, more power to ya.

---
I am a delicate fucking flower. https://beacons.ai/jesskent

11-06-02 9:40pm (new)
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wirthling
supercalifragilisticexpialadosucks

Member Rated:

I would just like to point out to Professor Pointyhead that Bongo is from Groening's pre-Simpsons comic strip, "Life in Hell," and has never been on the Simpsons (as far as I know). Otherwise, great post...

---
"And Wirthling isn't worth the paper he isn't printed on."

11-06-02 10:27pm (new)
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thealiasmen
Pink Donkey Wrangler

Member Rated:

There is no denying that stripcreator.com is a cool website. I've never seen anything like it, and I bet you haven't either. What's more impressive is the success this site has achieved over the past, what, two years? Look how many members there are. Look how many comic strips have been posted. Pretty impressive if you ask me, and it's all well deserved. No sarcasm here, just stating some obvious facts. But I did wonder why Brad would want to take any risks with his success by allowing registered members of the site to make unauthorized use of copyrighted cartoon characters. I also thought that it doesn't look that Brad gives special prominence on the site to comic strips containing unauthorized copyrighted characters in exchange for "donations". It gives the appearance of impropriety. And I also wondered if any of the members cared about any of this.

This is why I posted the topic. Not to troll. Not to make any attempts at being high-and-mighty. Not to prove anything. Not to get Brad to instantly remove Bongo from the site. I honestly wanted to know if anyone had given any thought to the matter of copyright.

Truth be told, I was going to post the topic in the 'suggestions' or 'general discussion' forums with the humble title or opening of 'copyright question'. But then my cynical side kicked-in and I feared that the topic would garner zero interest if I posted in those forums. Experience and age plays dirty tricks on your mind. I almost didn't post it at all. But much to your dismay, I saw the 'Fights Go Here/Say Hello to Anger' forum and couldn't resist. I turned the emotional dial of my post up to 'anger', and hoped to get a response. Well, butter my ass and call me a biscuit! I guess the anger worked. Why don't discussion boards on other sites have a 'Fights Go Here' forum? Probably to keep people like me out, I guess.

Anyway, on to the muckraking.

ObiJo, I appreciate your enthusiasm, but citing arbitrary excerpts from one web page you read in an hour does not go very far to convince me that copyright violation has not occured.

A copyright gives the owner five exclusive rights. These are the exclusive rights to reproduce, adapt, publicly distribute copies of, publicly display, and publicly perform the copyrighted work. If anyone else exercises one of these exclusive rights without authorization, that person is considered an infringer and is liable to the owner. Also, keep in mind that to prove infringement it doesn't have to be shown that the entire work was copied. If only 25 percent of the work were copied onto another work, or perhaps even only 10 percent, there may still be infringement. Thus, all the rumors about changing works 10 percent or 20 percent to avoid liability are completely false.

"But what about fair use?" you ask.

If you want to use someone else's work and have a fair use defense, then put the creator's copyright notice and credits on those portions of the work you have copied (if doing so doesn't harm the creator's reputation by presenting his/her credits out of context). This way you won't be engaged in plagiarism, and you protect the author's interests as the original creator and copyright holder. What is fair use is rarely clear-cut, and each case stands on its own merits. If you don't believe you have a fair use defense, then it's best just to ask for permission.

One last thought. The principal purpose of copyright law is not to protect artists, writers, and other creative persons, or even to protect their publishers, but rather to promote the arts and other creative activities. The United States Constitution gives Congress the right to enact patent and copyright laws in order to:

Artists, writers, and their publishers own copyrights, but it is society that ultimately benefits from protection for individuals. After all, if creative persons and their publishers were not given exclusive rights to publish their works, artists and expecially writers would be discouraged from producing works because anyone else could copy and profit from them. Also, publishers would not invest money in publishing works that could be immediately pirated by rivals. The theory is that giving exclusive publication rights to creative persons will encourage them and their publishers to produce more works.

:D

11-06-02 10:45pm (new)
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afroninja
Pink Donkey Wrangler

Member Rated:

I just wanted to say that it's particularly funny that artistic types take out their aggressions via art. They have that old, "If you piss me off, I'll draw you like a ninny" complex.

That's funny to me.

---
"In the end, everything is a gag." - Charles Chaplin

11-06-02 10:59pm (new)
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wirthling
supercalifragilisticexpialadosucks

Member Rated:

Well, blah blah blah blah blah!

(OK, I really wanted to add something intelligent but I don't have the energy right now...)

---
"And Wirthling isn't worth the paper he isn't printed on."

11-06-02 11:09pm (new)
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Stripcreator » Fights Go Here » stripcreator.com is illegal


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