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HCRoyall
100mg Thorazine, Please

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I believe in ghosts, as my house is haunted, so I have a hard time disbelieving in the existence of a soul. Said beliefs are logical conclusions to the existence of a higher being in my mind, through a few more deductions based uon sid beliefs.

Like I said before, most of the shit in life is just a bizarre and (to our perspective) cruel test, but as long as you suck it up and do what's right, you'll be okay. And besides, there's always Karma.

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It was such a waste of everyone’s time and money that even the Tokyo stadium’s rape robots apologized– something they were programmed specifically never to do.

12-21-05 2:00pm (new)
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Hari_Nezumi
Streeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeetch

Member Rated:

Did anyone hear about the jackasses who thought God sent Katrina to destroy the abortion clinics in New Orleans? Why did they think this? They believe the radar picture of Katrina looked like a Fetus.

HC, I'm confused. Do you or do you know believe in Big G?

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More lust than you can shake a stick at.

12-21-05 2:05pm (new)
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HCRoyall
100mg Thorazine, Please

Member Rated:

I believe in him, but I realize that endless preaching isnt going to make other people believe. I feel insulted by the Fundies because they make all Christians look bad. If gays want to marry, that's fine with me; homosexuality is genetic, there's too much evidence saying so for me to believe otherwise. I don't think abortion is right, but it's not my choice to make. I have my beliefs, other people have theirs; I don't shove mine down someone elses throat because I don't want that done to me.

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It was such a waste of everyone’s time and money that even the Tokyo stadium’s rape robots apologized– something they were programmed specifically never to do.

12-21-05 2:11pm (new)
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UnknownEric
and the Goblet of Mountain Dew.

Member Rated:


I would like to subscribe to your newsletter. I only wish everybody could follow this simple rule.

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I has a flavor!

12-21-05 3:57pm (new)
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Hari_Nezumi
Streeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeetch

Member Rated:

I actually heard somewhere that apparently, they found the rest of what is actually the FIFTEEN Commandments. They were only able to translate one commandment, number eleven, before religius activists set fire to the lab where the stone slab was being worked on. One scientist managed to get to Rome, where he presented a copy of the eleventh commandment to the Pope, who quickly charged the man with blaspheme, excommiunicated him, and had him banished from Rome. He was later found murdered. The eleventh commandment was, allegedly, "Keep they own religion to thy self".

Now I don't know if this is true, but I hope it is, because I'd love to see the looks on all those "JOIN US OR U WILL GO 2 HELL!!!!!" peoples' faces once it was made "official" or whatever. It'd be fucking priceless.

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More lust than you can shake a stick at.

12-21-05 4:16pm (new)
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Hari_Nezumi
Streeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeetch

Member Rated:

Wow. Good spelling of "Religious" Hari. Gooooooood job.

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More lust than you can shake a stick at.

12-21-05 4:18pm (new)
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Tasty
Has a tiny penis

Member Rated:

The lack of evidence for God's existence is reason enough to doubt God's existence.

For instance, things that do not exist do not give off "evidence" of their nonexistence. Only things that exist can give off evidence. Therefore, the only way one could adequately show that something does not exist would be to appeal to the lack of evidence. Granted, this inference is not completely certain. The evidence could be lacking only because of our ignorance of the evidence, and not because the thing does not exist. However, if we deny that this inference is valid, then it becomes impossible to make ANY claim of nonexistence for a non-contradictory concept--be it leprechauns, centaurs, or Santa Claus. If "absence of evidence" is not "evidence of absence" as agnostics and theists rabidly maintain, then nonexistence can never be claimed for anything. Obviously, this sets the epistemological burden much too high.

Existence can be proven with evidence, while nonexistence cannot. The only thing we would expect to see given nonexistence is a lack of evidence. This is the ONLY thing we would expect to see. Therefore, because it is a specific prediction of nonexistence, it seems to be the best explanation for lacking evidence. This means that a claim of nonexistence, given lacking evidence, could be falsified. If we found evidence, this would falsify the claim of nonexistence, which specifically predicted a lack of evidence.

The existence of a being, however, is compatible with lacking evidence and with present evidence. It does not make a specific prediction about whether we should expect to see evidence or not. Therefore, it cannot be falsified. For someone to believe that something exists when there is no evidence is thus intellectually unwarranted. Such a claim of positive existence could not be falsified because of our epistemological limits, and it shamelessly takes refuge in our own uncertainties, thinking this good enough reason to suppose existence. But this is absurd.

In short, because nonexistence cannot be "absolutely" proven (just like scientific inferences cannot be "absolutely" proven), does not mean that we cannot make claims of nonexistence. Like scientific theories, a claim of nonexistence would make a specific prediction (the lack of evidence) and would also be falsifiable (by the discovery of evidence of existence). However, a claim of existence in the face of no evidence is decidedly unwarranted, because this view could not be falsified nor absolutely proven. It is baseless conjecture. With nonexistence, we can at least arrive at absolute certainty upon falsification. But we can't do so if one assumes something exists in spite of the lacking evidence.

I now conclude my lecture on why the burden of proof should properly rest on the shoulders of one making a positive existential claim. And this is why atheism should be the default stance in regards to God's existence if there is no evidence for God's existence...just as disbelief in centaurs is the default stance given the lacking evidence for centaurs.

It should be a fairly intuitive concept, but certain agnostics and theists seem incapable of grasping it.

12-21-05 10:37pm (new)
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Tasty
Has a tiny penis

Member Rated:

"However, a claim of existence in the face of no evidence is decidedly unwarranted, because this view could not be falsified nor absolutely proven."

Leave off the "nor absolutely proven" part. It could be absolutely proven by uncovering evidence of existence. Duh.

But I'm sure you all get my point. To put the burden of proof on the shoulders of those arguing for nonexistence makes it absolutely impossible to prove nonexistence. Whereas if we put the burden on those arguing for existence, it is still possible to prove existence...but positive evidence would be needed, instead of mere retreat into uncertainty.

And the fact that absence of evidence is just what we'd expect given nonexistence, it seems more plausible to infer nonexistence over existence in the wake of no evidence. If you want to falsify an atheist's claims, find evidence. It's that simple.

12-21-05 10:52pm (new)
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squidrabies
I am a Care Bear.

Member Rated:

Actually, your arguement has given us evidence that God does exist.
Bear with me for a moment here...

God told Adam not to eat the fruit from the tree of "knowledge" or he'd be kicked out of paradise.

The bible and its proponents tell us we simply need "faith" in God, not "evidence", or to use another word, "knowledge".

Dinosaur bones give scientists and other marginally smart people the "knowledge" that the bible is either wrong or lying.

Christians and insane people tell everyone dinosaur bones are a test of "faith", or to use the other words, a test of "lack of evidence to the contrary" or "lack of knowledge".

A lot of the stupidest people in the world believe everything the bible says without question, because they have "faith" and need no "evidence" or "knowledge".

It's pretty clear that God hates people who think or learn, that he is against "knowledge" and rewards only blind "faith".

Therefore it is my contention that the existence of dinosaur bones is evidence of the existence of God.

12-21-05 11:04pm (new)
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Tasty
Has a tiny penis

Member Rated:

I like how your argument for God's existence is based on the premise, "God told Adam not to eat the fruit from the tree of knowledge".

That's begging the question at it's finest!

But here's my counter argument:
God once told me in my sleep that he does not exist.
God is never wrong.
Therefore, God does not exist.

I raise your question-begging with a non-sequitur, fiend!

12-21-05 11:13pm (new)
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boorite
crazy knife lady

Member Rated:

quote:

Dinosaur bones give scientists and other marginally smart people the "knowledge" that the bible is either wrong or lying.

Or that Genesis is metaphorical and not an empirical treatise on natural history.

---
What others say about boorite!

12-22-05 12:06am (new)
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boorite
crazy knife lady

Member Rated:

quote:
The lack of evidence for God's existence is reason enough to doubt God's existence.

I haven't yet heard an operational definition of God that would permit us to say whether it exists or not. An incoherent proposition is neither true nor false.

---
What others say about boorite!

12-22-05 12:09am (new)
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boorite
crazy knife lady

Member Rated:

Forget religion-- I want to hear more about this.

---
What others say about boorite!

12-22-05 12:11am (new)
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Tasty
Has a tiny penis

Member Rated:

quote:

Or that Genesis is metaphorical and not an empirical treatise on natural history.

Sweet, I think I'll interpret God as a metaphor for my mom.

12-22-05 12:12am (new)
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boorite
crazy knife lady

Member Rated:

quote:
quote:

Or that Genesis is metaphorical and not an empirical treatise on natural history.

Sweet, I think I'll interpret God as a metaphor for my mom.


Many people do construct God as a metaphor for parental authority.

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What others say about boorite!

12-22-05 12:14am (new)
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Tasty
Has a tiny penis

Member Rated:

quote:

I haven't yet heard an operational definition of God that would permit us to say whether it exists or not. An incoherent proposition is neither true nor false.

Assuming "god" has a definition (it doesn't matter what), my argument still stands. If there is no evidence for "god" (so defined), then there is no reason to believe it exists.

Most people tend to define God as an omnipotent, omnibenevolent creator of the universe, for instance. But the problem of evil pretty much refutes that one.

12-22-05 12:15am (new)
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boorite
crazy knife lady

Member Rated:

quote:
quote:

I haven't yet heard an operational definition of God that would permit us to say whether it exists or not. An incoherent proposition is neither true nor false.

Assuming "god" has a definition (it doesn't matter what), my argument still stands.


How can you state that something doesn't exist when we haven't said what it is? This is just as erroneous as stating that it does exist.

Believers will offer all sorts of evidence for God's existence (whatever that may be). I can come up with evidence for all sorts of outlandish stuff-- chupacabra, Bigfoot, creationism, intelligent design, you name it. The criterion therefore isn't whether or not there is evidence for a proposition. It is whether or not that proposition is, in principle, falsifiable, and then whether or not observation tends to falsify it. This is called the Popperian criterion.

The trouble with "faith" is that its claims are seldom intelligible, much less falsifiable.

I think the mystics are sometimes pretty clever at dealing with that. The trouble with the current discussion is that we haven't defined the terms. If we say God permits evil to happen to human beings without defining God (or evil), then we do not know who is doing what to whom, and we have no place from which to proceed with our speculations.

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What others say about boorite!

12-22-05 12:33am (new)
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Tasty
Has a tiny penis

Member Rated:

Assuming that we have defined God, and that the definition references some sort of entity whose existence is not supported by any evidence, my argument stands. We can infer that such a God does not exist if there is no evidence to support the claim of existence for this particular God.

All of the supposed "evidence" they would offer would not really be evidence, though. All of the logical arguments for God's existence, from the teleological to the cosmological to the ontological, are all quite easily debunked. And personal experiences and personal testimony can hardly be considered valid evidence for someone who has not had such experiences, especially when a wide range of people claim to have had "spiritual" experiences that are so diverse. When I say that we can doubt God's existence given the lack of evidence, this does not mean that theists don't THINK they have evidence. Most of them do think they have evidence. They will mindlessly ask "How could everything be here without God?" and think that this argument from incredulity is "evidence". But it's not evidence, and that's the point. If a particular argument doesn't work, if the facts that operate in a premise don't hold up, then it's not really any "evidence" for the existence of a deity. They may THINK this is valid evidence, but thankfully rational beings are capable of distinguishing between good and bad evidence, and what would actually constitute "evidence" for God's existence.

Well, the problem of evil doesn't work, naturally, if one doesn't define God or evil. But, thankfully, most people accept the definition of God as all-good and all-powerful...(any other God wouldn't be worth worshipping, really). Even if evil isn't clearly defined, so long as one is able to say that evil exists, the argument from evil works. If I ask a Christian whether brutally raping and murdering a child is an instance of evil, they will surely say yes. The few who say no are attempting to get around the force of the argument by denying the existence of evil. In which case I would have to wonder how this is compatible with a religion that emphasizes moral laws and rules.

12-22-05 12:49am (new)
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mandingo
weak stream

Member Rated:

you posted the devil thong girl picture. you're good.

quote:
Well, if you fuckers would actually read your Bibles instead of thumping them like the hairless monkeys you are, you would know that God told Noah after the Flood that the next time he punished the Earth, it would be in a baptismal of Fire. Now, I don't know what sort of fucked u Webster's you guys are using, but last I checked, "wind and rain" is not the definition of "fire".

So STFU.


well the only way to make that consisent is to assume he was talking about the whole earth at once. otherwise he fell off the wagon quick with the cananites and hitties and dy-NO-mites

my belief system is that we'll all have the same socioeconomic status since we'll all be in the same place. 6 feet down taking a dirt nap.

i hope i'm wrong

well as a majority we all shove our beliefs down others throats by way of laws. the question with the abortion issue is if you consider it okay to take a morning after pill to "abort" a baby, but not okay to kill a toddler, then where should the dividing line be drawn. ie, when does life begin

first cause is a big piece of supporting evidence for existence of a god. everything comes from something, you came from your mom and dad, who came from their's, humans came from apes, apes came from... on and on it goes till you're in the ocean with a single cell organism... which came from the chemicals in the ocean, which came from matter coalescing... and eventually you get to the big bang. which came from?? that's where there is no evidence and you have to start theorizing. one such theory could be god, another could be multiple dimensionality, etc. the point is that all of these have a "lack of evidence", still the universe came from somewhere

OR DID IT???

(that last sentence was just for any paranoid schitzophrenics reading)

i heard they translated all 5

11. thou shalt not step on a crack lest thou break your poor mom's back

12. no shirt, no shoes, no service

13. milk

14. eggs

15. pick up dry cleaning

oof, that's not wise. there's a lack of evidence for dark matter, yet it supposedly makes up something like 95% of our universe

that's why science doesn't make claims. they speak in %'s like Finn said

it's definitely warranted if it helps to explain a lot of other phenomenon. you don't look at the thing in a vacuum. you take it in context with everything else you already know about the universe. dark matter is one example. black holes is another. they can't see black holes, they observe the gravity effects on nearby galaxies, nebula, whatever and theorize the existence of blackholes. many MANY scientific discoveries were made this way. many goof ups too. but all of them are consistent with the scientific method despite the lack of evidence. it's the first step of the scientific method actually. hypothesizing

the problem comes in when the only hypotheses that solve the problem are untestable. this is the case with the creation of the universe. all the theories that explain it are untestable -- a deity creating it, multidimensionality, alternating cycles of big bang, big crunch, etc

another good example is string theory. the strings of string theory are too small to even come close to seeing them through the most powerful microscope. still, it solves the search for a Grand Unified Theory, and many scientists would argue with you if you told them the lack of evidence and testability made it incorrect

imo, the problem with your reasoning is that you're considering the issue in a vacuum. science is all inclusive. it's a whittling down process. it considers the whole universe and eliminates choices as it goes. truth is we can have no evidence for something, but if its existence would solve a bunch of other scientific problems, then it's a valid theory. you don't assume it is true or untrue a priori. you remain neutral until evidence is forthcoming. just like you don't assume god exists (religious) or assume he doesn't (atheist) and think either one of these is the "logical" approach. it's not. it's an opinion and everyone's entitled to one, but the logical scientific answer is to say i don't know. the logical scientific answer to whether there's a god is to be agnostic.

---
what if nigger meant kite

12-22-05 2:06am (new)
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Tasty
Has a tiny penis

Member Rated:

The first cause argument is the silliest and most ridiculous of the arguments for God's existence. All of the first cause arguments, be it the Kalam argument or the Contingency argument, fail because they needlessly deny the possibility of an infinite series. Not only that, but they most surely do not prove any God's existence. Rather, they prove there is a first cause, which could be anything. Ockham's razor lets us shave away any needless hypotheses about a necessary God when we can simply say that energy was the first cause and the one necessary thing.

A quick refutation of the Kalam argument:
1. Anything that begins to exist has a cause.
2. The universe began to exist.
3. Therefore, the universe has a cause.

The argument uses Big Bang cosmology to support the second premise. However, Big Bang cosmology denies the first premise. Technically, the singularity always existed. It is arguably "synonymous" with nothing, but it's not exactly "nothing". Not only that, but the universe couldn't have "begun" to exist, because time itself was created at the Big Bang. If time was created along with the universe, then that means the universe existed for all time, or always. And, of course, this argument only proves that the universe or energy itself may have been the first cause. Not only that, but a tacit assumption of the argument is that there cannot be an infinite string of causes, but that is an unwarranted assumption.

God is not a theory, because it makes no predictions and has no explanatory power. String theory is derived from quantum physics and should make certain predictions that could test it. I don't know much about string theory, and I suppose you aren't exactly a Phd in the matter either, so I don't think you are warranted just throwing it out there saying it isn't based on evidence or that it doesn't follow scientific methodology by making ample predictions.

First of all, dark matter DOES give off evidence, which is why scientists tend to believe it exists. There are certain unexplained gravitational effects, and the theory of dark matter seems to account for this. Not only that, but dark matter is not "nonexistence", so I don't really see why you think it is relevant to my discussion.

This has nothing to do with what I said. Science does make claims. One such claim is that man evolved from apes. Science is not absolutely certain, but it is based upon evidence, predictive power, and falsification. Even scientists can make claims about how the world works.

If the theory has explanatory power and accounts for phenomenon while making falsifiable predictions, then the theory certainly isn't believed without "evidence". The explanatory and predictive power IS the evidence. That's how science works. Your example thus has nothing to do with my argument. Any hypothesis of God, however, would have virtually no explanatory power because it absolutely could not be tested based on its predictions. It would predict any observation.

For an example, let's look at the debate between "intelligent design" and evolution. Evolution predicts that we should observe certain features of biological life. We should not biological similarities in structure and DNA for ancestors and descendants. If we don't, it is probably wrong. We should observe vestigial parts that are evolutionary left-overs from a time when they were once used. If we don't, it is probably wrong. We should also observe a geological distribution that gives off evidence of common descent. If we found that the animals that are supposed to be related could not possibly have migrated to two distant areas, then there is a problem.

Notice how with evolution, the fact that it SPECIFICALLY predicts certain observations, and the fact that a contrary observation could falsify it, is what gives it such great explanatory power.

Let's look at intelligent design. What would we expect to see? Well, we could see similarity OR dissimilarity. A designer could design it either way. We could see vestigial parts or no vestigial parts. The designer may have been inept or silly and put those useless parts in there for fun. We could see any geographical distrubtion whatsoever, because the designer could put organisms anywhere he chose.

So you see, this theory makes no predictions and has no explanatory power. Even though it can account for the observations we make, the fact that it can account for ANY observation is why this is no big surprise. Evolution, however, can account ONLY for these observations, and yet that's just what we see. It would be a miracle for such an accurate prediction if it were false!

I have shown why the cosmological argument fails. Stop spouting off this nonsense about how theories of dark matter and string theory are the same as theories of God. They are not the same.

The theories would NOT be consistent with the scientific method if there were a lack of evidence. I think the problem is that you don't understand what would constitute evidence. Notice how, in the evolution example, no one need directly observe evolution to know it is true. The evidence is in its effects, which can be observed, and which are specifically predicted. The predictive power of a theory, and the fact that the observations fit the framework while not falsifying it, IS the evidence. the first step of the scientific method is to hypothesize, but one can't hypothesize about just anything. Saying, "Magical elves did it" could certainly explain almost anything, because magic can account for anything, but that doesn't make it a good scientific hypothesis.

I don't think you know what "testable" means in science, either. Something is testable so long as it makes specific predictions. The Big Bang theory, for instance, would predict an expanding universe and red shifts. There are other predictions we could also pull from the theory. This is what allows it to be tested. If one of the predictions turns out false, we can abandon it. The reason there are so many competiting theories for the origin of the universe is because a lot of it is so speculative that it is difficult to test. But why you think this is evidence for accepting God's existence is silly. This is a god of the gaps argument. You have retreated into uncertainty, a good hiding place for any God, and then said that this gives us sufficient evidence to believe. Hold it right there. That's complete crap. Give me some predictive power of your "god" hypothesis so that I can potentially test it. Otherwise, I will write it off as being wholly unsupported by any evidence or explanatory power.

"another good example is string theory. the strings of string theory are too small to even come close to seeing them through the most powerful microscope."

Again, the fact that we can't "see" them or DIRECTLY observe them doesn't mean they are believed in WITHOUT EVIDENCE. We can't directly observe evolution, either. But that doesn't mean all the things it predicted isn't evidence.

Simply listing off a bunch of theoretical physics and then waving your hands and saying "God is just like that" is silly. It is NOTHING like that. Give me a prediction, or a test. Keep in mind the scientific definition of prediction or testability, not the one you seem to have invented.

"you remain neutral until evidence is forthcoming. just like you don't assume god exists (religious) or assume he doesn't (atheist). the logical scientific answer to whether there's a god is to be agnostic."

You must not have understood my post then. Nonexistence CANNOT be proven with evidence. The ONLY thing you would expect to see given nonexistence is a complete LACK of any evidence. Given that this is a very specific prediction, and it could potentially be falsified by receiving evidence, it is reasonable to conclude from the lack of evidence that God does not exist. This is a type of scientific reasoning. I am looking at the specific prediction of a claim, noting that it has been fulfilled, noting that it could be falsified, and adopting it. A claim of existence, on the other hand, would make no specific prediction. It is compatible with lacking evidence (if we're ignorant) and present evidence. Therefore, it can't be falsified. Therefore, the burden of proof should be on their shoulders.

Not only that, but agnosticism is an epistemological view, not an ontological one. And to claim that scientists can't make a predictive hypothesis about nonexistence...indeed, to make any claim of nonexistence IMPOSSIBLE by denying my inferences...is limiting inquiry at the highest level, and is certainly not pragmatically justified.

Whew.

12-22-05 10:25am (new)
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ivytheplant
Obsessive Comic Disorder

Member Rated:

I worship cats.

12-22-05 11:38am (new)
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LuckyGuess
hm

Member Rated:

This is all really good. I'm really loving this.
-----

In any case, what it all comes down to is how people themselves act. Religions are, in the simplest of terms, a set of guidelines to make peoples lives better and give faith. The problem, again, lies with power mongers who wish to gain from it. Take any religion. Christianity? Okay, that works. Here are a group of people who were originally fed to large carnivorous mammals for practicing something that made them happy. They were persecuted, and thousands of years later they are doing it back. Sort of like eye for an eye, but religious-like. Eat your heart out, Hammurabi.

I'd elaborate, but I'm in a rush.

Oooo, and I'm interested in HC's ghost house myself. Hows that work?

---
the kid's getting old, the kid's getting old

12-22-05 12:13pm (new)
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HCRoyall
100mg Thorazine, Please

Member Rated:

quote:
quote:

Dinosaur bones give scientists and other marginally smart people the "knowledge" that the bible is either wrong or lying.

Or that Genesis is metaphorical and not an empirical treatise on natural history.


One can't take Genesis literally, because it talks about the world being created in seven days when there wasn't anything like day or night until the second "day". It's a creation parable meant to convey how powerful God is.

As for squidrabies's comment on Knowledge, most Christian Sects believe science and knowledge to be a way for us to understand how this world works. The message is that too much knowledge too fast is wrong, because we don't gain wisdom fast enough to use that knowledge properly. Adam and Eve would've discovered things on their own eventually, but the fruit of Knowledge gave them too much at once, more than they were prepared for.

---
It was such a waste of everyone’s time and money that even the Tokyo stadium’s rape robots apologized– something they were programmed specifically never to do.

12-22-05 12:17pm (new)
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squidrabies
I am a Care Bear.

Member Rated:

I believe it was Jesus who said unto Matthew, "I don't think everyone got the joke."

12-22-05 12:42pm (new)
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boorite
crazy knife lady

Member Rated:

quote:

Assuming that we have defined God, and that the definition references some sort of entity whose existence is not supported by any evidence, my argument stands. We can infer that such a God does not exist if there is no evidence to support the claim of existence for this particular God.

That's very close to a tautology. X therefore X. It's valid but doesn't take us very far. And it is only true if the premise is true, "God is defined as some sort of entity whose existence is not supported by any evidence."

quote:
All of the supposed "evidence" (believers) would offer would not really be evidence, though. All of the logical arguments for God's existence, from the teleological to the cosmological to the ontological, are all quite easily debunked...

I understand your approach, but I'd come at it another way. Where claims of paranormal or supernatural causes for observed events ("evidence")are intelligible, a much better explanation is usually available. For example, here are some strange footprints along with some dinosaur tracks. This is "evidence" that humans coexisted with dinosaurs, which is consistent with young-Earth creationism. But on closer examination, we find that the strange footprints are consistent not with human tracks but with dinosaur tracks partially filled in by mud. It is not that there is "no evidence" for the first theory; it is that the first theory fails to explain all the evidence. In short, it's a shitty explanation, and the evidence tends to support a different one.

No, quite the opposite. Widely-reported spiritual experiences across cultures are evidence of something, whether you have had them or not. What explains such experiences is an interesting question.

And they do. But where their "evidence" is used to support theories like young-Earth creationism, their explanations fail in crucial ways; there are better explanations.

1. It is not clear to me that "most people accept the definition of God as all-good and all-powerful." From what does this assumption proceed?

2. I don't think we should accept "most people's" definition of a phenomenon as the correct one.

3. If we have not defined "good," then the statement "God is all-good" is meaningless, and we might as well say "God is all mizzixwyzzix."

4. Furthermore, since we have not defined God, we might as well say "Bliffisgurgl is all mizzixwyzzix."

5. If you demonstrate that God is not A or God is not B or God is neither A nor B, you have not demonstrated that God (whatever it is) does not exist, only that he does not possess those qualities.

6. Demonstrating that God permits evil actions does not demonstrate that God is not good. It could be argued that permitting evil serves some higher good. This has occurred to more than one theologian.

Mizzixwyzzix exists.

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What others say about boorite!

12-22-05 1:45pm (new)
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