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DragonXero
I'm Here, You're Queer, Get Used to it

Member Rated:

As I've said before (many times, I'm sure you guys are sick of hearing it) I do love my country, but there are certain core elements of it which bug the shit out of me.
The main thing that bothers me is the electoral college. There's no reason for it to continue. With it in place, we are assured to never get our votes truly counted. As was seen in Bush's victory over Gore, the electoral college really fucks things up. Basically, it's a way for those in charge to say "you people are too stupid to decide this for yourselves, so we're going to decide for you!"
I don't think this is fair at all. Most people are educated about the issues now, and if they're not, they can just google them and find out more about them. Almost everyone has television now, and can see the candidates express their views personally. Why can't we decide who we want for president ourselves?? The sad part is, there's no way I can think of to eliminate this tired old tradition which stifles the american voters' ability to choose.

Anyone have any thoughts on this?

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Do you want ants? Because that's how you get ants.

9-03-04 12:13am (new)
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biped
Mr. Wonderful

Member Rated:

These are some excerpts from an article I found. Whether one agrees with it or not, it does provide an interesting explanation of the reasoning behind the electoral college:

Runs must be grouped in a way that wins games, just as popular votes must be grouped in a way that wins states. [In the 1960 World Series] The Yankees won three blowouts (16-3, 10-0, 12-0), but they couldn't come up with the runs they needed in the other four games, which were close. "And that's exactly how Cleveland lost the series of 1888," Natapoff continues. "Grover Cleveland. He lost the five largest states by a close margin, though he carried Texas, which was a thinly populated state then, by a large margin. So he scored more runs, but he lost the five biggies." And that was fair, too.

In sports, we accept that a true champion should be more consistent than the 1960 Yankees. A champion should be able to win at least some of the tough, close contests by every means available - bunting, stealing, brilliant pitching, dazzling plays in the field - and not just smack home runs against second-best pitchers. A presidential candidate worthy of office, by the same logic, should have broad appeal across the whole nation, and not just play strongly on a single issue to isolated blocs of voters.

Individual voting power is higher when funneled through districts - such as states - than when pooled in one large, direct election. It is more likely, in other words, that your one vote will determine the outcome in your state and your state will then turn the outcome of the electoral college, than that your vote will turn the outcome of a direct national election. A voter therefore, has more power under the current electoral system.
A well-designed electoral system might include obstacles to thwart an overbearing majority. But direct, national voting has none. Under raw voting, a candidate has every incentive to woo only the largest bloc-say, Serbs in Yugoslavia. If a Serb party wins national power, minorities have no prospect of throwing them out; 49 percent will never beat 51 percent. Knowing this, the majority can do as it pleases (lacking other effective checks and balances). But in a districted election, no one becomes president without winning a large number. of districts, or "states" - say, two of the following three: Serbia, Bosnia, and Croatia. Candidates thus have an incentive to campaign for non-Serb votes in at least some of those states and to tone down extreme positions-in short, to make elections less risky events for the losers. The result, as George Wallace used to say, may often be a race without "a dime's worth of difference" between two main candidates, which he viewed as a weakness but others view as a strength of our system.

In the 1960 presidential race, one of the closest ever...a deadlock would have been 34,167,371 votes for Kennedy and the same for Nixon (also-rans not included). Instead, Kennedy squeaked past Nixon 34,227,096 to 34,107,646. You might as well try to balance a pencil on its point as try to swing a modern U.S. election with one vote. In a typical large election, individuals or small groups of voters have little chance of being critical to a raw-vote victory, and they therefore have little bargaining power with a prospective president.

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1511/is_n11_v17/ai_18762289

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Legend, oh legend, the third wheel legend...always in the way.

9-03-04 1:04am (new)
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DragonXero
I'm Here, You're Queer, Get Used to it

Member Rated:

Nice article man. Was more hoping for some discussion on the topic, since I have a feeling many people here aren't fans of the electoral college.

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Do you want ants? Because that's how you get ants.

9-03-04 4:54am (new)
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psycoma
Ice Queen...Shaken, Not Stirred

Member Rated:

I am not a fan of the electoral college either, but I can understand the point the article was trying to make. It would be one thing if the people who were in the EC would actually listen to the people from the state they are representing but more often than not I don't think they do. That's why I have such a hard time with those ads that feature people standing under the big Jerry Lewis telethon counter talking about why they are voting. Your one vote doesn't really mean shit. Oh yeah, you can feel good about yourself by saying that you did your civic duty to God and your country by getting out on Tuesday and "...making your voice heard..." but the truth of the matter is, your one vote could in fact sway the popular vote in your state to your candidate of choice. Then low and behold, you get home and find out that the EC did an end run (or some other fitting sports analogy-gimme a break, I'm a girl) and totally fucked you, your employer, and your mother for the next (at least) 4 years.

I think that in this day and age, so many people in history have fought so long and hard-sometimes with fatal results-to ensure that we had the power as citizens of this country to elect those we felt should be in office that there is really no reason to for all intents and purposes deny us that right now. Blacks fought for it, women fought for it, and way back when, white male land owners fought for it. Seems to me that all that fighting ought to count for something. But it really doesn't when you realize that the little electronic box you're buzzing behind your curtain isn't hooked up to anything beyond said curtain.

-gets down off soap box, I should really get back to work lol

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When life hands you lemons, throw them at someone. Nihil curo de ista tua stulta superstitione.

9-03-04 6:26am (new)
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kaufman
Director of Cats

Member Rated:

Quick civics lesson. You do not vote for president. You do not vote for Bush or Kerry or Nader or LaRouche or Wirthling. You vote for the group of Electors that will represent your state in December, and no doubt vote for whichever of Bushkerrynaderlarouchewirthling they are pledged to.

Thus, while it's passed off as one presidential election, what we have is 51 separate elections. Fair? I don't know, but a few features are worth mentioning:

First of all, each state's share is 2 plus a number roughly proportional to its population. This gives big states more raw clout than small, but the straight 2-vote add-on gives the smaller states more clout than a strictly proportional vote. Ivytheplant's vote carries more clout than DragonXero's, since there's one Elector per 167,000 Wyomingans, but there's only one per 645,000 Californians. Some of you may think this is a good thing.

Second, we've only had a few elections where the winner of the popular vote didn't also win the electoral vote. So the system seems robust. It certainly affects campaign strategies, as candidates need to collect votes all over.

Third, the fact that a *majority* is needed in the electoral, rather than the popular vote, makes it more likely (under two dominant parties) that a winner will be decided in November, and not in the House. If we had three major parties, such an outcome would be far less likely.

Fourth (and this is sure a bad aspect), Joe blow gets 53% of the vote, but it's the right 53%, so he gets 376 electoral votes (70%). "Landslide," claims Dan Rather. "Mandate," claim his spin doctors. And Joe goes on to unilaterally fuck the country for the next 4 years.

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ken.kaufman@gmail.com

9-03-04 8:11am (new)
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UnknownEric
and the Goblet of Mountain Dew.

Member Rated:

I went there for one semester, then transferred to the South Harrisburg Institute of Technology (go Browns!).

But seriously, folks, I'm torn on the whole "electoral college" thing. On one hand, it is a good way to make sure all states have an equal voice in the election of the president... and I understand some of the reasoning behind it, ie, so that someone can't get elected President by dominating the voting in only one portion of the country. On the other hand, our country (as well as the rest of the world) is filled with idiots, so I'm not sure that I WANT them to have an equal voice. So there. :P

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I has a flavor!

9-03-04 8:15am (new)
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MikeyG
Shoots the shit and often misses

Member Rated:

Eric, you hit the nail on the head. The majority of people are idiots, but that unfortunatly kicks us right in the ass. The problem with the current governmental system right now is the fact that there is a ruling few and a ruled majority. We "elect" representatives to represent us, when in fact they actually have to do no such thing once they are in office. A small amount of people have a very, very large say in what happens to the entire population. This is only a sound plan if it is based on the fact that man is inherently good and does not succumb easily to temptation and selfishness.

Which at this point, is a moot and laughable concept. If we say, then, that the intelligent or the "perceptive" should rule the majorities, then there will still be an elite class, and we will be just like the current system. That is how we are in the current conundrum. We have had countless people get into these positions based on the guise that they want to help America and Americans, and they consistently just fuck up the system. This is because many of us have lost our bullshit detectors.

Kerry and Bush are both bullshit artists. Its their job. I think Bush is particularly terrible at it, and his lies are fucking transparent. Kerry is a better liar, but he is still a liar or a teller of half-truths. Electoral college or not, the system needs a lot of re-working.

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The giant three-phallused phallus of Uzbekistan will one day squirt the cosmic jizz of revenge all over Canada.

9-03-04 9:49am (new)
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MaKK_BeNN
VOTE JEB BUSH 2008

Member Rated:

I think the electoral college serves an arguable purpose. Candidates are really competing for the votes of states, and not the nation's. Regional issues instead of broad demographic issues get more play. If there were no electoral college you would have evangelistic Christians sweeping the nation every year. On top of that poor and sparsely populated states would rarely have their concerns voiced. Giving them at least 2 electoral votes (or "5 : 1 New York votes") is a fair trade off. Don't think of it as destroying your vote, think of it as a collection of independent state governments selecting a leader.

I agree there's an argument to abolish it also. Unless X amount of function of state governments (which depend on federal funding) are federalised, I think there remains a good argument to keep it. For example New Mexico needs federal funding for education, and stands a better chance of getting it under the electoral college system. It's similar to each state getting 2 senators. If you abolish the electoral college (which you could make an argument for) I think you'd have to at least address why the process of having 2 senators doesn't need to change.

It's also analagous to district voting. Those that think the electoral college is unfair, is drawing districts around red and blue lines also unfair? What's the difference?

I've got another good question, for those who complain about the 2000 election. If the same thing happens in 2004, but with Bush losing the election but winning the popular vote, would you still complain about it?

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Vote Jeb Bush 2008

9-03-04 1:30pm (new)
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psycoma
Ice Queen...Shaken, Not Stirred

Member Rated:

I complained about the 2000 election but it was because the person who the people voted for did not get elected. So therefore the answer to your question is Yes. I would still complain if Bush lost the election but won the popular vote because even though it may not be the candidate *I* voted for, it is still the candidate that the majority of the people of this country wanted to elect.

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When life hands you lemons, throw them at someone. Nihil curo de ista tua stulta superstitione.

9-03-04 1:51pm (new)
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biped
Mr. Wonderful

Member Rated:

I would complain about it if my candidate got the popular vote yet lost the electoral college vote. But if my candidate lost the popular vote but won the electoral college vote, I would support it.

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Legend, oh legend, the third wheel legend...always in the way.

9-03-04 2:53pm (new)
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kaufman
Director of Cats

Member Rated:

Gerrymandering designed to keep the current majority party in power is an abomination.

Gerrymandering to keep the incumbents in power, even when done to benefit both parties, is also an abomination.

That's not a good question, and I'll tell you why.

My complaint with the 2000 election is that it was unclear to me who actually got more votes in Florida, and should have accordingly carried the state and the election. As far as I'm concerned, anyone who says they know who actually got the most votes there, be it allegedly Bush or Gore, is a partisan liar.

I have no gripe in principle about the person carrying the overall popular vote not winning. That's the way it's set up, and everyone knows that going in.

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ken.kaufman@gmail.com

9-03-04 9:19pm (new)
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DragonXero
I'm Here, You're Queer, Get Used to it

Member Rated:

I personally was confused when Gore lost, though a little happy, since Bush was my pick at the time. I still think the electoral college is bullshit though.

---
Do you want ants? Because that's how you get ants.

9-03-04 9:33pm (new)
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MaKK_BeNN
VOTE JEB BUSH 2008

Member Rated:

quote:
My complaint with the 2000 election is that it was unclear to me who actually got more votes in Florida, and should have accordingly carried the state and the election. As far as I'm concerned, anyone who says they know who actually got the most votes there, be it allegedly Bush or Gore, is a partisan liar.

I have no gripe in principle about the person carrying the overall popular vote not winning. That's the way it's set up, and everyone knows that going in.


Well I've heard two complaints, though usually coupled, both in respect to the election ambiguity in Florida and also the popular vote count.

I think that (though the case against me being biased is obvious) the ambiguity came from the legal challenge itself, from the Gore camp. Regardless, it's clear the system isn't set up to handle legal challenges in close elections.

biped if you're not trying to be funny I appreciate the honesty. All in all if you changed the system you'd the campaign tactics would change accordingly and you would be basically back to square one.

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Vote Jeb Bush 2008

9-04-04 1:08am (new)
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psycoma
Ice Queen...Shaken, Not Stirred

Member Rated:

quote:

(though the case against me being biased is obvious)


the case against *you*?...what?? what are you talking about there? I'm just kinda curious.

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When life hands you lemons, throw them at someone. Nihil curo de ista tua stulta superstitione.

9-04-04 1:31am (new)
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MaKK_BeNN
VOTE JEB BUSH 2008

Member Rated:

I extend my invitation for you to seriously participate in the discussion to this thread also. People in this thread are actually having a good conversation, I'm sorry you are trying to derail that. Go to IRC and say you have boobies if you just want some attention.

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Vote Jeb Bush 2008

9-04-04 9:24am (new)
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niteowl
Level 1 Forum Troll

Member Rated:

Makk...please scroll up, and you'll notice that psycoma made two posts earlier in this thread about the topic at hand. Also, the question she posed in her last post was out of curiosity, not to try to get a rise out of you or to derail the thread. Now before you dismiss what I said as putting words in her mouth, please note that I just asked her what she meant by her post, as she is sitting right next to me. Thanks.

Man, being tactful is painful. I better head over to the politics thread to blow off some steam.

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Think classy, you'll be classy.

9-04-04 4:18pm (new)
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psycoma
Ice Queen...Shaken, Not Stirred

Member Rated:

Just for the record, niteowl is correct. He happened to be the one in front of the computer during your latest round of 'Let's Dodge The Question' so he responded first. Sharing a computer does have its drawbacks.

As you are so fond of doing, I too will remind you to read back in the thread. *throws tact-o-meter out the window*

I *have* participated in this discussion you fucking moron. I answered the initial question raised in the thread, and then went on to seriously answer the question you posed in your post. Just because you pretend it isn't there doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

The question I was asking you was also part of the discussion. I have plenty of opportunities to point out what an idiot you are, that was not one of the. I was genuinely interested in what point you were trying to make by bringing whatever bias people may or may not have about *you* into a discussion that had nothing to do with how people feel about *you*. (I think you're mixing up the threads. This is the Electoral College thread. Nobody has attacked you *yet* here (give them time). I think maybe you thought you were still in the politics thread.

Either way, avoiding the question and trying to convince people that I'm only interested in telling them I have boobies doesn't bode well for your credibility (unestablished though it may be). Attacking someone without provocation may be how *you* handle fq intelligent discussions /fq but it is not how other people do. Rather than 'extending your invitation' to a discussion I need no permission from you to participate in in the first place, why not try participating in it yourself. I saw no derailment on my part. I was asking you about a specific part of your post. I did, however, see a major example of it in yours. Maybe *you* should be the one going to IRC to tell people you have boobies, because you're definitely a boob.

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When life hands you lemons, throw them at someone. Nihil curo de ista tua stulta superstitione.

9-04-04 4:44pm (new)
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MaKK_BeNN
VOTE JEB BUSH 2008

Member Rated:

Still no material response to my original comments. Interesting.

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Vote Jeb Bush 2008

9-04-04 6:01pm (new)
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